Navigating Grief and High-Conflict Divorce: Insights from Thanatology Expert Karen Omand
Tune in for a conversation with Karen Omand, a grief and divorce expert with a rare degree in Thanatology. She is the co-author of the “Just Separated Divorce Workbook,” and co-founder of The Divorce Workshop. She specializes in high-conflict cases, post-divorce abuse, grief, and divorce.
Discover practical insights on navigating grief, handling high-conflict divorces, and supporting children during challenging times. With Karen’s personal experiences and actionable advice, you’ll learn how to find meaning, rebuild your life, and support loved ones through loss. Perfect for anyone facing emotional challenges or supporting someone through divorce or bereavement.
What You'll Learn in This Episode:
- Karen's personal story of loss and how it led her to a degree in grief and bereavement.
- The layers of loss in both death and divorce and how they affect identity, future dreams, and emotional wellbeing.
- Strategies for coping with grief while balancing life responsibilities, especially as a parent.
- The importance of recognizing and supporting children's grief during and after a divorce.
- Practical tips for navigating high-conflict divorces, co-parenting challenges, and finding hope on the other side.
- Insights into Karen's workbook, Just Separated, designed to support those experiencing separation or divorce with actionable steps and emotional guidance.
Timeline:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:47 Karen's Background and Journey into Thanatology
03:00 Understanding Grief and Non-Death Losses
04:16 Grief in Divorce and Personal Experiences
06:49 Layers of Loss and Secondary Losses
12:47 Support Systems and Coping Mechanisms
18:34 Rebuilding Life After Loss
21:08 Communicating Grief and Setting Boundaries
26:14 Understanding Grieving Styles and Symptoms
26:59 Supporting Grievers: Practical Tips
28:00 Introducing the Workbook: A Resource for Divorce and Breakup
29:13 Insights on Divorce: Personal Stories and Practical Advice
31:42 Helping Children Cope with Divorce
35:03 Co-Parenting Strategies and Self-Compassion
43:24 Accessing the Workbook and Additional Resources
48:57 Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks
👉CONNECT WITH KAREN OMAND:
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🌟Just Separated Workbook https://divorceworkshop.ca/workbook
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Transcript
Hello.
Speaker:Welcome to another episode of the Art of Life podcast.
Speaker:So today I have a very special guest, Karen.
Speaker:She joins us all the way from Canada.
Speaker:Now, Karen holds a rare university degree.
Speaker:degree in Thanatology and a BA in Sociology.
Speaker:So she is going to talk to us about grief today, about high conflict divorce,
Speaker:and how we can all move on from that.
Speaker:welcome, Karen.
Speaker:Glad to have you on the show.
Speaker:I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker:Thank you for having me.
Speaker:How are you today?
Speaker:How's your day been so far?
Speaker:Because it's my morning and it's been your Evening.
Speaker:My evening, we're getting quite cold up in Canada.
Speaker:It's cold now, but, yeah, it's been a very busy day.
Speaker:So, how about you?
Speaker:So, the ontology
Speaker:excited to start this conversation with you.
Speaker:So the first thing when I was looking at this, and I know a little bit of
Speaker:your story, but I don't know a lot.
Speaker:What really caught me was that you've done degree in thanatology.
Speaker:And to be honest, I just had to go and really Google it
Speaker:and understand what it is.
Speaker:And so it turns out.
Speaker:to be like you study the body after someone's passed away.
Speaker:So just curious, what got you into it?
Speaker:Why did you do this?
Speaker:Just walk us through your story.
Speaker:is, as I, as you said, is a rare degree.
Speaker:It's a study of bereavement, grief, and loss.
Speaker:I think there's only, in North America, there may be one or two
Speaker:schools that offer this degree.
Speaker:So, I'm assuming worldwide it's, it's not as you said, it's pretty rare.
Speaker:Why I got into this is, You know, as anyone has their journey, but I lost
Speaker:both my parents within two years, and they were quite sudden, and my mom, I
Speaker:was, my kids were young, very little, when my mom died, and she died suddenly
Speaker:after my dad died two years before.
Speaker:And I was very, very close with her.
Speaker:And I was very, very lost.
Speaker:There wasn't a lot of support systems.
Speaker:I felt really alone and like an orphan.
Speaker:And so that kind of morphed me into trying to figure out how to
Speaker:do this better, how to help people.
Speaker:It took some time though after that to kind of figure out that I was
Speaker:going to do a degree in grief because, as I said, it wasn't very popular.
Speaker:Like I didn't see it in any social media or any advertising.
Speaker:So I started doing volunteer work with bereavement people.
Speaker:And I also did volunteer with end of life care, palliative, so I had
Speaker:seen both the people who had been dying and then the people that,
Speaker:on the other end, the bereavement.
Speaker:And so I kind of fell into the passion of helping bereavement, and so that's what
Speaker:led me to the degree, which gave me, as we can talk about later, meaning and purpose
Speaker:in life, after my parents sudden deaths.
Speaker:So that's how I kind of got into it, except
Speaker:As I, again, as I grew more in my degree, I also had to do some
Speaker:courses on non death losses.
Speaker:And, non death losses meaning you know, such as divorce, job loss, moving I think
Speaker:some stats say there's over 70 types of non death losses, right, like you and
Speaker:your best friend don't talk anymore.
Speaker:Like all these grief that we feel today, right, we do, a lot of us feel some sort
Speaker:of little grief every day compared to the, the grief of a loss of a loved one.
Speaker:And so that got me into the divorce field because there's a lot of grief
Speaker:that goes unrecognized in divorce.
Speaker:And so, between working with grieving coun like, counseling grieving people
Speaker:as well as educating and doing workshops for grieving people, I started, and
Speaker:I've been starting for about, I'm in my fourth year of, with the divorce stuff.
Speaker:And I'm trying to promote that as well around the world to have more
Speaker:acknowledging that there is a component of grief in the divorce world.
Speaker:As well.
Speaker:So, that sums it up very shortly.
Speaker:And I'm also, I've gone through a pretty tough divorce.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, no, and what you're saying actually resonates so much.
Speaker:I do have questions on this, like how old were you and so on, but just before I
Speaker:get into it and just talking about grief as such for our listeners as well, we
Speaker:tend to think of grief as, you know, if I lost someone, if I lost a relationship
Speaker:or something, for, with my ex, for example, I had a very toxic relationship.
Speaker:I thought I'd mentally separated from him very, very long ago, because
Speaker:we tried to stay in the same roof.
Speaker:We tried to just work it for the sake of our children.
Speaker:So it was a long drawn out process for various reasons.
Speaker:And yet, when we really separated, when that decision was made, and I was talking
Speaker:to a counselor on the phone, and he's telling me, like, why am I grieving?
Speaker:Like, how is this grieving?
Speaker:Because I've done the grieving, you know, for two years.
Speaker:And he's like, no, you're still grieving.
Speaker:You're moaned.
Speaker:You're mourning your dreams that
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:and we actually grieve a lot.
Speaker:And it depends.
Speaker:Some person could just be grieving.
Speaker:Like some person for them, it could just be a grief that they moved a
Speaker:city and they left people behind.
Speaker:For others, it could be something normal, whereas something else could
Speaker:be very, very big in their life.
Speaker:So how old were you?
Speaker:when you started comprehending, because you mentioned like your
Speaker:children, were really little at the time and you'd lost your parents.
Speaker:How old were you?
Speaker:How were you making your, your sense in all of this?
Speaker:So, I was in my, my dad, I think I was 34.
Speaker:So my kids were, one was just born.
Speaker:And the she was about 10 months old, and the other one was
Speaker:probably two, going on three.
Speaker:And then My mom, who, they were also divorced, my mom was, so I
Speaker:was the two years right after.
Speaker:So that, and, and those, what I, what you have to appreciate, there was not
Speaker:a lot of support systems in place.
Speaker:My ex had no idea how to support, which caused massive friction.
Speaker:I look back at that more compassionately now, knowing what I know now.
Speaker:But that's how I, That was kind of the demise of the marriage, to be
Speaker:honest with you, if I was to pinpoint.
Speaker:I lasted longer for about eight years after.
Speaker:And then, right before we divorced, I started doing my thanatology degree.
Speaker:But to speak of what you were saying, what that counsellor
Speaker:was saying is, so in thanatology world, we call that layers of loss.
Speaker:And so, that's only one component, like the future dreams.
Speaker:There's so many other layers that we don't actually really
Speaker:understand with divorce, right?
Speaker:Or even in grief loss, like a loss of a loved one, right?
Speaker:The layers of loss.
Speaker:We call them either layers of loss or secondary losses.
Speaker:So you have the death or the divorce is the main thing.
Speaker:And then underneath it all, there's layers, right?
Speaker:So future dreams.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Also your identity.
Speaker:I had a whole list of them, but if you could think of it as intangible
Speaker:things that you can't see.
Speaker:So the role you had, you were a wife.
Speaker:your identity, who you were to a tangible, right?
Speaker:Well, most of us have to move houses.
Speaker:Most of us financially different.
Speaker:So anything tangible, right?
Speaker:Like the things in your house, you have to split up.
Speaker:So these are things that not a lot of people that are going through
Speaker:a death, a degree, a divorce loss, understand a death loss.
Speaker:It's the same.
Speaker:There's all these secondary losses that we have to, you know, and both of them,
Speaker:if you think, you know, for, right.
Speaker:certain types of death, not a natural order of death, which we can talk about.
Speaker:That's like an elderly natural order of death, right?
Speaker:Anything below a certain age is what we call off time.
Speaker:And off time is what you and I would say is loss of future dreams, right?
Speaker:Because that person isn't here.
Speaker:They should be here.
Speaker:And it correlates with divorce, right?
Speaker:Loss of future dreams because, In divorce, no one ever expects to get,
Speaker:like, in marriage, like, divorcing, no one, when you get married, sorry,
Speaker:no one expects to get divorced, right?
Speaker:Oh yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker:And we, we are unprepared.
Speaker:We're unprepared.
Speaker:So we are coping up with it.
Speaker:And I think the important point that we haven't talked about so far is
Speaker:just that an expectation like you were a mother at that time as well.
Speaker:That must've been really hard because you have very, very little children who
Speaker:cannot even understand what's going on.
Speaker:And yet they have their day to day needs and they want you to play with them
Speaker:and they want you to laugh with them.
Speaker:Like you have a newborn, you have a little.
Speaker:two, three year old child.
Speaker:it's very different.
Speaker:Their expectations when you drop them at daycare or when you go to school, it's a
Speaker:different role that you sort of get into.
Speaker:So often there's the trapped emotion because you just cannot have a space
Speaker:where you can just let go and grieve.
Speaker:you would like to grieve because life has an automatic pilot
Speaker:and you've just got to keep the treadmill and just keep going with it
Speaker:Yeah, that's so true, I mean, I think I, for the first, I was in such shock with
Speaker:my mother's death, I think for the first six, seven months, I just functioned, but
Speaker:I wasn't really at all absorbing, right, I wasn't really, I remember I have a story,
Speaker:story to say that in, so she died January and one of my neighbors, I went for a
Speaker:walk and she's like, you know, they, they knew my mother and, and they, they said,
Speaker:well, we haven't seen her in a while.
Speaker:And I said, oh, she's fine.
Speaker:Because I had not even, yes, and this happens with grievers.
Speaker:I could not accept the reality of the loss.
Speaker:I was still doing a lot of processing.
Speaker:Yeah, so I tell that story quite often and people are like you,
Speaker:they're shocked, but this is, this is what happens to some people.
Speaker:I just was not able to process this, it took me quite a long time.
Speaker:because we have to find comfort somewhere.
Speaker:And how I look at myself whenever I've had like a shocking thing is the day to
Speaker:day thing, that's the day to day routines.
Speaker:Like you've got to have something working.
Speaker:you know, some, some routine because everything else in
Speaker:your world is shaken up.
Speaker:So like, okay, what is a little bit of routine that I can get?
Speaker:And often, if I look back at my times, I look at the times, okay, what's maybe the
Speaker:next meal or sometimes even looking after my son that time as taxing as it feels,
Speaker:it also gives Handrail, so to speak, to just walk on in life because there are
Speaker:groceries to be done or there's a meal to be provided and you sort of do the day
Speaker:that way instead of absorbing or being in the present because it's just so hard
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:accepting it's hard.
Speaker:yeah, and, and the thing is though, is that's why I work with people to try
Speaker:to encourage moments when they come up and if it's safe to do so, however
Speaker:they release is to release, right?
Speaker:So, another thing with.
Speaker:grief, it can be in my world, right?
Speaker:It's, we call them intuitive or instrumental grieving.
Speaker:So intuitive is obviously, it's emotional.
Speaker:We express our emotions.
Speaker:And then instrumental, right, is when we do things.
Speaker:So in the gender world, We tend to see men do more instrumental, right?
Speaker:They kind of think their way through more and women are more intuitive.
Speaker:However, I've seen it many times.
Speaker:They sway, right?
Speaker:I've seen men break down.
Speaker:I've seen women very, very.
Speaker:I've seen women that tell me I'm going gardening today.
Speaker:That's what's, you know, so they're doing things, right?
Speaker:So it doesn't, I don't, we're not stereotyping to say one does one.
Speaker:It's just in general, everyone sways.
Speaker:I know for myself with both the divorce and the death losses I've experienced
Speaker:I've had to do a lot of walking.
Speaker:And a lot of force bathing, and a lot of grieving on my own, emoting so I'm
Speaker:definitely a pendulum person, right?
Speaker:I need to move my body, and I also need to express and have support.
Speaker:For our listeners who are listening to this and either loss that they're
Speaker:having, whether they're going through a divorce or whether there's something
Speaker:else that is really significant in their life and causing them griefs,
Speaker:are some of the immediate things that they can do that you would advise?
Speaker:For them.
Speaker:There's two things we look for, and I wanted to tell everybody that
Speaker:grief is so unique for everybody.
Speaker:So for you, how you grieve is going to be different than how I grieve, so
Speaker:don't compare yourself with anybody.
Speaker:You know, if you're in a family situation and your parent dies or something and
Speaker:you notice your brother's not grieving the same way you are, accept that.
Speaker:You know, everybody grieves so differently and it causes a lot of friction with
Speaker:family systems when one isn't grieving.
Speaker:Like if I'm emoting and I'm expressing, why aren't you, you know,
Speaker:you're going to look around going, well, why, why aren't you crying?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Well, To understand that we all, so that's one thing I wanted to
Speaker:say, we're all very, very unique.
Speaker:As I said to you before, we need to lean in.
Speaker:A lot of times the support systems are not as good as we want and
Speaker:that can be very lacking, right?
Speaker:And I do exercise in both divorce and in the grief world where they fill
Speaker:out a form to figure out their right support systems because I'll mention
Speaker:the divorce one cause it's on my head, but it's called the wild UN exercise.
Speaker:And so yeah.
Speaker:You write down a list of all the people in your sphere, right?
Speaker:So, even neighbors that you're good for, like, like decent neighbors, right?
Speaker:Or faith people, or whoever.
Speaker:Name them all.
Speaker:And then put them in the categories.
Speaker:Like, so listeners, right?
Speaker:Who are your listeners?
Speaker:And a lot of us don't have that many because there are not
Speaker:really strong listeners, right?
Speaker:Like, but who's that best friend or who's that good family member that
Speaker:you can call up and they will listen?
Speaker:Because you need,
Speaker:and they're not gonna advise you.
Speaker:They will just be there.
Speaker:Like they will just be a vessel for whatever you wanna
Speaker:say rejecting their thoughts.
Speaker:and, and who's the worker.
Speaker:So the worker we use in divorce or the, the doer.
Speaker:So who's the one that's going to bring you the pizza, bring the lasagna over, or if
Speaker:you're divorcing, who's going to help cut the lawn or cook, you know what I mean?
Speaker:So we have the doers type of people or workers.
Speaker:So, and then the, the other one is the respite.
Speaker:So who's the one that's going to say, Hey let's go.
Speaker:I'm going to take you to the movie.
Speaker:You need to get out of the house or I'm going to come over and you know, We're
Speaker:going to have watch TV and watch a movie.
Speaker:So those are really important that people kind of figure out
Speaker:who the right support systems are.
Speaker:So, support for me is, is a really important thing when you're going
Speaker:through either of these losses.
Speaker:Both with death loss, we have a bit of support for a while.
Speaker:And then as you know, probably it, it tails off.
Speaker:And a lot of times I see clients where they're still grieving heavy.
Speaker:But they don't have that support system anymore.
Speaker:So another thing is that I use is the four pillar support.
Speaker:And so I make sure they have, you know, how's the peer support?
Speaker:Do you have good peer support?
Speaker:That's a support groups or such things that you do like healing centers, right?
Speaker:Things that things that they can go to and they feel like a
Speaker:community and they feel supported and then it's friends and family.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And then there's yourself because whether you're going through a divorce or any
Speaker:type of non death loss or death loss, You still have to do the work, right?
Speaker:It's, it's you and it's hard work.
Speaker:Grief is a big frustration.
Speaker:It's probably the most hardest thing you'll ever get through in life.
Speaker:And so realizing that, you know, you, you know, I, I work with mothers that have
Speaker:lost daughters through drug overdose and the work that these ladies do, it's, it's,
Speaker:it's, And it is, I'm so proud of them.
Speaker:But it's so hard.
Speaker:But they've done the work, right?
Speaker:And so they still need support.
Speaker:Pardon me?
Speaker:I want to also tell people that on the other side, it's a lot brighter that
Speaker:yes, it feels very, very hard today.
Speaker:Like just yesterday, I had a client not as bad as this, but she.
Speaker:Just had a job loss.
Speaker:She was fired and she wasn't fired in a nice way.
Speaker:She was just fired in a really brutal manner, but often what
Speaker:that can do is it just takes away your sense of identity and so on.
Speaker:So she's going to like really look at herself and really look at all
Speaker:the pieces of her, and or losses.
Speaker:They'll be different and similar.
Speaker:I want to remind all the listeners that at the end, that there's a before, there's
Speaker:an after picture, just like a house can have the before and after picture
Speaker:and the after you don't just really realize how the house is looking and how
Speaker:the same house was in shambles before the redecoration that happens.
Speaker:Afterwards, that can be really, really glorious.
Speaker:So think of it this way, that if you're doing so much of shift and if you do
Speaker:really digging out all the dirt and you're like, Oh my God, I can't handle this.
Speaker:You got it still because somewhere, you
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:You wanted it as part of a soul evolution.
Speaker:And I'm not saying it was a conscious decision.
Speaker:I'm not saying that it's to blame anyone, but this was written for you.
Speaker:You were meant for this significant change.
Speaker:by significant change, I also mean significant evolution.
Speaker:Talk to us a little bit about the after.
Speaker:After that, you see with your clients, once they've walked through and they've
Speaker:done the hard work just to give our listeners a picture, give them a little
Speaker:bit of hope and strength and inspire them to go through the tough times.
Speaker:There is a lot of hope.
Speaker:I've worked with all different types of losses and I've been it's baby steps,
Speaker:you know, it's very gentle baby steps.
Speaker:I don't there's not a huge big transitions within weeks.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It's very, very gentle baby steps.
Speaker:But what you were saying about your house, right?
Speaker:So another thing is, is.
Speaker:As I said to you before, making meaning.
Speaker:So it's building your foundation again and it may not look like the same
Speaker:house, but it can still look like a lovely house, just different, right?
Speaker:So it's rebuilding your life.
Speaker:However, you're going to vision it, you know, like they work
Speaker:with you to help that part of it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And they may work with me to help understand what grief is
Speaker:and, and help them through that.
Speaker:But Rebuilding and we call it making meaning is really one of the most
Speaker:important things and it's, it's so different for everybody and I can't,
Speaker:I can only suggest things, right?
Speaker:And how they do that, right?
Speaker:Like, if I think of my story eight, nine years ago I was so unconfident
Speaker:that I didn't even think I could go work at the variety store.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:That's how, that's how low I was, right?
Speaker:I, for me going to the shops and simply shopping without crying, without
Speaker:being a mess, like someone looking me in the eye, I was just so bad.
Speaker:I would feel like I would just be a bag of tears.
Speaker:So for me, just making a shop trip, like really quick, not looking anyone
Speaker:in the eye and just getting my milk bottle or whatever and coming back, that
Speaker:was a really big step in the beginning.
Speaker:So I hear you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So there's a lot of, I did a lot and I work with a lot of people and it's
Speaker:just very gentle baby steps, right?
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:And I, you know, I look back at where I was or look back where you were
Speaker:and, and, and the growth, right?
Speaker:It's been a lot of growth, and there's been a lot of, in growth there's a
Speaker:lot of, you know, it's uncomfortable divorce is uncomfortable, right?
Speaker:If you think about divorce ways, it's like it's, it's uncomfortable, but as
Speaker:you said, it was meant to be, right?
Speaker:It's kind of what the journey was, right?
Speaker:And accepting that is a huge component and processing that too, so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you mentioned about support system.
Speaker:Now, oftentimes what I also find is let's say in the office or someone who sort of
Speaker:knows the situation, but doesn't know you too well, or sometimes even when people
Speaker:really know you, they want to help you.
Speaker:It's hard to know what to say and what to ask them.
Speaker:Like, it's like a, Usually it sort of becomes like a little big elephant
Speaker:in the room, you know it, but then you just talk about coffee or food or
Speaker:the weather, and even if you want to really sincerely support the person,
Speaker:you just don't know how to approach it.
Speaker:So how can supporters around them and people who are just in their office and
Speaker:so on, how can they really help them?
Speaker:So it is, it can be tricky, right?
Speaker:I will say.
Speaker:To say nothing is wrong, right?
Speaker:And to be mindful of what you say.
Speaker:In when I was doing my degree, we had a talk one day and we're talking about
Speaker:all the stupid things people say.
Speaker:And the list is long.
Speaker:I mean, if you want examples, I give you examples, but saying something
Speaker:meaningful, they may say, I don't want to talk about it because I teach
Speaker:my clients, grief boundaries, right?
Speaker:If they're not ready yet, I want them to say, I can't do that right now.
Speaker:But that doesn't mean if you're a decent friend to this person or you
Speaker:care about this person, that maybe in a couple weeks or three weeks you kind
Speaker:of approach and say, would you know, would you like to go for a cup of tea?
Speaker:Or how's it going?
Speaker:Is is because a lot of time in the grievers, whether divorce or
Speaker:whatever, they isolate, right?
Speaker:And that's okay.
Speaker:'cause they're in so much pain.
Speaker:Like the example of you going out for milk, right?
Speaker:You isolate.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Not say anything at all, but trying to be mindful and kind of having to
Speaker:read the room because It's not easy.
Speaker:I'm gonna say I've been I've been doing this quite a long time and even
Speaker:I have to kind of Read it out before I even go up and just approach them.
Speaker:Just be mindful Don't don't think don't say things like they're at peace or
Speaker:they're in a better place And do not compare your loss to to theirs, right?
Speaker:You know, like a lot of people go, Oh, well, I lost my parents too.
Speaker:And this has nothing to do with you.
Speaker:This is putting yourself in their shoes and their pain and just being there,
Speaker:like don't harp on them all the time, but staying consistent, maybe checking
Speaker:in and they may not answer your phone or the text, but they may see it.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:And so that they know that they'll matter.
Speaker:So I'm also, so just keep trying if, you know, and for the people that
Speaker:are in the grieving side, either divorce or death, I teach it a lot.
Speaker:I do this with divorcees as well practice what you're going to say to somebody.
Speaker:So if you're going through a tough divorce or you've had a
Speaker:tough, a loss, write a script out.
Speaker:Like, write it out and practice out, and so when someone comes up
Speaker:to you and you don't want to talk about it, you've kind of already
Speaker:practiced what you're going to say.
Speaker:Like, I don't want to talk about this with you, thank you for asking.
Speaker:Or, this is what happened, I don't want to, you know, so write a script.
Speaker:And practice it, practice it with somebody else or just with yourself.
Speaker:So at least you have it in your head that if someone comes up to you and
Speaker:says, you know, because not a lot of people are going to, there are
Speaker:going to be people that aren't going to be as aware or as appropriate.
Speaker:So you can have that little practice.
Speaker:That I have to tell you, I use that a lot, actually.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:But then there are people who really matter or matter significantly.
Speaker:Like that could be your parents or that could be someone in your family.
Speaker:Children, we'll talk about.
Speaker:A little bit later, because that's a different hat that you've got
Speaker:to put on, but how do you do it?
Speaker:What do you say to your family?
Speaker:What do you say to maybe your mother?
Speaker:Who's just calling you again and again, or just wanting to
Speaker:know how you are and so on.
Speaker:How
Speaker:Is this a death loss or like, or both?
Speaker:Maybe, yeah, maybe just talk to whatever you've seen recently.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we talked about, before I talked about grief boundaries, right?
Speaker:I said, you know, depending what type of mother she is, right?
Speaker:If she's, if she's helping you,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Then you can be more honest.
Speaker:then you can be more honest, right?
Speaker:And if she's, you know, depending on the, the parent and child relationship,
Speaker:even adult children, I mean, it depends what type of parent you are.
Speaker:To me, you're allowed boundaries, period, right?
Speaker:And so, it depends.
Speaker:Who they are, right?
Speaker:Because my mother was very warm, so I would have probably let her in, right?
Speaker:But again, it's not easy for the parent either, even if they're very supportive,
Speaker:because emotions for grief, and I have it in the book, it goes all gamut, right?
Speaker:You can be very angry.
Speaker:Some aren't angry at all.
Speaker:You can be very irritable.
Speaker:Like, it shows up in different ways.
Speaker:So, I think family members that are supporting ones that are
Speaker:grieving, if they understood that, like, the grieving styles, but
Speaker:also the symptoms of grief, right?
Speaker:Like, a mother's good intention is like, eat.
Speaker:You need to eat.
Speaker:You need to eat.
Speaker:Well, every time this person's eating, they're getting stomach aches and
Speaker:nauseated because their nervous system, their cortisol levels are all through
Speaker:the roof because of all the uncertainty and, or grief or pain they're in, right?
Speaker:So if they understood going, I think my child is, is, is really
Speaker:the, you know, you know, the energy is all upset and everything.
Speaker:And so they would kind of be more understanding instead of, a
Speaker:lot of people don't know, right?
Speaker:Like they don't.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And we also have to remember, what is the intention of these people?
Speaker:Are they just trying?
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's just that grievers are, you know, they're in pain.
Speaker:They're grieving, they're going through their process, and someone
Speaker:who's supporting them, some, often the supporters come from what they
Speaker:know, and what they know is their
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So, like, you gave a very good example, so when the mum says, Hey, you've
Speaker:got to eat, because generally, yes, eating is good for you, But you've just
Speaker:got to see what's really happening.
Speaker:So sometimes as a supporter, just be prepared to see what's really happening
Speaker:and try and be present in that moment.
Speaker:And rather than going like maybe what the books told you or what
Speaker:your conditioning has been, try and see how it's really working out.
Speaker:And sometimes you need to be present.
Speaker:And that might mean taking a little bit of a backstep on
Speaker:certain things and that's okay.
Speaker:And that's fine.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So talk
Speaker:It's not an easy thing.
Speaker:no, yeah, totally.
Speaker:So talk to us about your book, how do you come to writing it and what's
Speaker:your main message for everyone?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:in since 2021 and we had decided about a year in, to do a workbook.
Speaker:So it's a very simple workbook, but it's kind of a resource
Speaker:book for those going through or exploring divorce or just breakup.
Speaker:Like it doesn't have to be divorce, you know, cohabitating couples or whatever.
Speaker:We've, we wrote it, it's been about two years and it's been,
Speaker:it's graphically pleasing.
Speaker:Like it's, so there's about 55 little workouts from Who
Speaker:you are divorcing, separating.
Speaker:So you kind of have to figure out, because a lot of us, especially in
Speaker:divorce, especially ones that have more of a toxic type of ex, don't really
Speaker:understand who they're divorcing.
Speaker:And for myself, I thought, well, of course it's going to be just a
Speaker:normal, practical, simple divorce.
Speaker:Well, it has not been, right?
Speaker:Because I was a little bit naive to think if he didn't behave very well in the
Speaker:marriage, for some reason, I thought he was going to behave well in the divorce.
Speaker:That doesn't really change too much, right?
Speaker:So, actually, I'll tell you a little story.
Speaker:I went to I went and got some Reiki.
Speaker:Do you guys have Reiki in Australia?
Speaker:And she did treatment on me, and she said, I don't know, you're going
Speaker:to understand this better than me, but she's like, he's stuck in mud,
Speaker:and you cannot teach him anymore.
Speaker:So, energetically wise, you have to, You have to go and I tell you I
Speaker:cried and cried and cried and cried.
Speaker:I released it was like but that's the point of that story is is is
Speaker:that's that character personality still stuck in mud and I've been
Speaker:growing and he's still stuck in mud.
Speaker:So The book comes from a real passion because just like that I was naive
Speaker:I felt like I say this all the time.
Speaker:I fish out of water.
Speaker:I didn't know and I came from a divorced family So the book helps
Speaker:with that Insights in divorce like really in the practical sense not
Speaker:energetic practical sense divorce of the business It's a contract that's
Speaker:broken up right and then it's legal information So do you go to lawyer?
Speaker:Do you do mediate?
Speaker:You know what's in a separation agreement and then there's emotions
Speaker:right because emotions are some people say it's 95 percent of the
Speaker:divorce and that's where you probably like people come to see you, right?
Speaker:Because it's like, as soon as we handle those a little bit better or understand
Speaker:or aware or cope, we can start letting go and then the anger starts going.
Speaker:So, and then there's the financial, which is just the financial
Speaker:information because a lot of people are uncertain about finances in divorce.
Speaker:And then there's co parenting, because that's also a big skill
Speaker:that not many people know how to do.
Speaker:It's a big adjustment for some, most actually.
Speaker:And then recovery.
Speaker:It's a big change.
Speaker:changes, right?
Speaker:Your home changes, your identity, everything is changing.
Speaker:So yes, you're going to adapt, but it's going to be a completely new system.
Speaker:It's going to be a completely new lifestyle as well, depending on the
Speaker:finances you have and your kids need to have different houses, how are they going
Speaker:to be with the other parent and so on.
Speaker:So yeah, glad you're covering all of
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then recovery, which is, you know, the, the, the the, the, the, the, it was
Speaker:the easiest and the nicest one to write because it's, it's the hope page, right?
Speaker:It's like, we've got, I think, 40 pages of recovery.
Speaker:I did want to mention just before that to remind people that are going through a
Speaker:divorce We talk a lot about ourselves that grieve the divorce for different reasons.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We talked about the beginning, but I also want to mention that
Speaker:remember that your kids are grieving.
Speaker:They're grieving the loss of their family foundation.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And that when you're with them, You're not grieving because they're with
Speaker:you, but they may be grieving that they're not with their other parent.
Speaker:And then when they're with the other parent, they could be
Speaker:going, I really miss my mom,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I just want to put that in perspective because it's a lot of
Speaker:like, you're in pain, especially with the holidays coming up, right?
Speaker:And we're having to transition a lot of kids, you know, just remember
Speaker:that, yes, you're grieving because you only get them half of the holidays.
Speaker:But they're grieving full time, right?
Speaker:And a lot of times developmentally they don't know how to handle that.
Speaker:So sometimes with the young ones they can regress or they can get angry and yeah,
Speaker:we have that stuff in the book as well.
Speaker:But it's just, I just wanted to mention that because I as a child of divorce,
Speaker:that also no one acknowledged it, right?
Speaker:That I was crying in my room at night wishing I was with my mom, right?
Speaker:So just be mindful of that for the coming up holidays.
Speaker:No, and that's a very good pointer.
Speaker:And it's one of those things that doesn't stop in the sense that when the children
Speaker:are growing up, it is an forever thing.
Speaker:And often people think, Oh, you know, divorce, divorce happened in the past.
Speaker:Like your parents separated in the past and then things mattered.
Speaker:But no, every 14th birthday, every, every little milestone when
Speaker:you got a trophy, when or when things did not work out right.
Speaker:You have one parent to support.
Speaker:And you would ideally want, like who doesn't want as a child to have More
Speaker:loving parents that could also be for grandparents and so on as a child.
Speaker:You want people to just care for you and have that.
Speaker:We all want that.
Speaker:Even as we grow up, we want to have more support around us and people
Speaker:who understand us and care for us.
Speaker:So yes, that's a really big thing to keep in mind.
Speaker:I think also for parents to understand that it's not around
Speaker:jealous or feeling less jealous.
Speaker:than the other parent.
Speaker:Maybe you're, like I know from my relationship, yes my relationship with
Speaker:my ex was toxic and I hope it is for a lot of parents, they can say that.
Speaker:But when I would look at that, I would say that, oh my ex,
Speaker:but he's still a wonderful dad.
Speaker:May or
Speaker:Good point.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:Mm
Speaker:with it a hundred percent, you know, like, yes, I do this part better and
Speaker:I do something else, but he doesn't get this or she doesn't get it.
Speaker:That is okay.
Speaker:But they're the only other parent.
Speaker:And if they are good, try and focus on what is that good.
Speaker:And just bring that out more and more and more because it's
Speaker:good for the child to have that.
Speaker:Biologically, if let's say one person was able to raise a child, I
Speaker:always Davis, like we wouldn't need another partner to raise a child.
Speaker:If we need another partner, there is a need.
Speaker:There is an inherent need to have another parent.
Speaker:And if that is possible, even if it's a very high conflict divorce, it's
Speaker:very to that make space for that.
Speaker:Like while you're going for the divorce, but just have that energetic space for it.
Speaker:hmm.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:to allow that parent to have tips for parents there.
Speaker:I have a, just something, it just came up.
Speaker:We have it in the book to the workbook is, is you have to do an exercise where you
Speaker:have to think, and it's funny because, you know, if it's high conflict or even a lot
Speaker:of divorces are moderate conflict, right?
Speaker:There may not be high, but there's a lot of moderate conflict because
Speaker:you are getting a divorce, right?
Speaker:It's not that easy.
Speaker:Try to think of something your ex does well, right?
Speaker:Because we're going to think they don't do this well, they don't do
Speaker:this well, but try to just, you know, sit there and go, okay, so maybe
Speaker:they're really into science, right?
Speaker:And you're not very good at science, but your kid is really love science.
Speaker:Well then you know that when they're over at their dad's or mom's, that
Speaker:is going to be really helpful that they're going to have these great
Speaker:discussions about science, right?
Speaker:So you understand the exercise, right?
Speaker:So it's just like you're saying, like, even though you may not.
Speaker:You know, you and your ex maybe have been fairly high conflict, but you're good now.
Speaker:You, at the beginning, you're like, well, he still is the father and
Speaker:he still does some things good.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So it just puts you in the mindset, right?
Speaker:Like, you know, maybe he, they do this good and I'm, you know,
Speaker:maybe I'm not very creative, but they are, you know what I mean?
Speaker:So you fell in love with them for one reason or another.
Speaker:They have to have something, it can be, you know, it can be, it doesn't
Speaker:have to be lots of things, but they have to be something that, that,
Speaker:that you can look at and say, yeah, okay, they're pretty good at this.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:And focus and focus on that a lot more, especially the early days when,
Speaker:you know, you're separating with your child to let them feel that the other
Speaker:thing, tell us about actually how you've seen parents their kids better
Speaker:in all these high divorce cases.
Speaker:What can parents do to their children cope with the grief that the kids
Speaker:are going through all the time?
Speaker:Well, one thing is, is, is awareness that they're actually grieving, right?
Speaker:And giving them space, you know, the thing about children is it's
Speaker:all about, as you've already said, developmentally, right?
Speaker:Like, you know, If they're four, they're going to react differently than
Speaker:you are when you're 10 or 12 or 14.
Speaker:You know, when they're teenagers, they're already trying to
Speaker:pull away from you already.
Speaker:And they may continue to do that, right, and do their sport teams or their clubs.
Speaker:They can show up in grades that are, you know, maybe, you
Speaker:know, watch out for grades.
Speaker:A lot of times with I think the tweens are the hardest, right?
Speaker:They're in that kind of really tough age.
Speaker:So just keep you know, just keep an eye and I would also say that especially
Speaker:with those tweens and teenagers that don't obsessed over the divorce to them.
Speaker:You know, one of the biggest mistakes I made is I kept on
Speaker:harping are you guys okay?
Speaker:Are you guys okay?
Speaker:And they were tweens.
Speaker:And they were like enough.
Speaker:We're fine.
Speaker:Like don't want to talk about it every day with you, mom.
Speaker:I said, Oh, okay.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So just making sure.
Speaker:Watched for younger ones.
Speaker:Watched behaviors, watch regression.
Speaker:I also want to mention if you're having a moderate or higher conflict
Speaker:you have to keep the conflict out.
Speaker:You, you cannot.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:I mean, you know that it's so well researched No arguing
Speaker:in front of your children.
Speaker:You know there's another exercise I have, it's called the front door, back door.
Speaker:The front stage is where you win the Oscar, or the over here we have the Cheesy
Speaker:People's Choice Award, which is, I don't care what award, but you're doing holiday
Speaker:concerts right now, or whatever's coming up, you do that the front door, front
Speaker:stage, where you're like, hello, right?
Speaker:The back stage is, It's where you talk to you, to me, to your friends,
Speaker:your family, where you can get out everything and all the frustrations not
Speaker:in front of your children because it is, yeah, it's really, that's one of
Speaker:the big things is kids are already going through enough, the big transition.
Speaker:It's a lot of grief and you need to be, and it's not easy to
Speaker:do, none of this is easy to do.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think what I always try and remember that adults are
Speaker:separating, so we separate.
Speaker:Kids still have that family.
Speaker:when they draw their family tree, whether at school or with anyone, you know, mom,
Speaker:dad might be in a different house and grandparents might be in different houses.
Speaker:But for them, that's their family tree.
Speaker:That's how they connect the lines.
Speaker:So when we talk to them about the other parent, we talk to them
Speaker:about those conflicts and so on.
Speaker:For them, we're shattering their world.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:love your analogy around front door and back door.
Speaker:Like keep their front door, which is inviting.
Speaker:They want to grow up in a nice safe place.
Speaker:the parent that you would want to be.
Speaker:Be the parent that you would
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:Mm
Speaker:Be that even if you feel like, Hey, I can't muster the strength and so on.
Speaker:It's okay to say like, I've told my son and probably you have
Speaker:strategies for that as well.
Speaker:But I've told my son, Hey, I'm just overwhelmed right now.
Speaker:Mommy needs a minute or mommy needs
Speaker:minutes.
Speaker:And I need that time.
Speaker:And I'll separate myself and go into a room.
Speaker:My.
Speaker:My thing is I meditate and come back
Speaker:hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm hmm, mm
Speaker:that when mom does that, it's okay.
Speaker:Like she comes out a better person for him.
Speaker:hmm.
Speaker:Yep, yep.
Speaker:So help parents with that front door, back door and to deal with them so that they
Speaker:can be better parents for their children and they can give them better things.
Speaker:They can bring them up better.
Speaker:What are maybe some of your strategies or perhaps some things
Speaker:that you've outlined in your book?
Speaker:For the co parenting,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As
Speaker:when you are feeling really off, when something's really triggering
Speaker:you, but you want to separate from your child, but your child's right
Speaker:there in that moment with you.
Speaker:for them, it's
Speaker:That happened often.
Speaker:It happened often.
Speaker:So it was a practice.
Speaker:Like, as I said, I'm also, you know, It's a very, it's a slow progression, right?
Speaker:And one of the things I also want to mention is if you do come out, like, say
Speaker:you get a nasty letter or a text that they're just and you go, Oh, and you
Speaker:swear, you say, darn it, or whatever.
Speaker:And they can tell by your behavior that, you know, the
Speaker:energy is, is you're to repair.
Speaker:You need to repair.
Speaker:You know, I have made mistakes as a co parent, you know, I've
Speaker:rolled my eyes, at a couple of Christmas gifts he gave them, right?
Speaker:I didn't, I didn't say anything, but you know as well as I do
Speaker:that this is not good, right?
Speaker:It's not good.
Speaker:It's not, it's, it's not good for them.
Speaker:And I did it.
Speaker:For them, it's where they come from.
Speaker:For them, it's at least 50 percent of how, and especially if it's your same
Speaker:sex parent or someone you, it is someone you love and admire, and it's really
Speaker:from intrinsically a part of your world.
Speaker:So what you're really saying then no to, is you're saying that no
Speaker:to that other half of your child.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:We have to remember that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I, I, my, my point of this is for, for people to remember,
Speaker:you need to repair because we're human and we're flawed, right?
Speaker:And so we do make mistakes.
Speaker:We all do.
Speaker:That's a self compassion.
Speaker:That's in recovery.
Speaker:I have that.
Speaker:Practice self compassion, but also repair and just say gently, you know, I'm sorry.
Speaker:I didn't mean to react that way.
Speaker:I'm sorry.
Speaker:I, you know, as you said, I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker:It's just a lot going on right now, right?
Speaker:Because you know, if, if, if you're going to keep beat yourself up all the time,
Speaker:that gets really destructive on you too.
Speaker:So just realize that you, you know, repairing with your children when
Speaker:something happens that you slipped out.
Speaker:Or, you know, you're not doing it intentionally, just go and repair.
Speaker:yeah, yeah, that's a solid advice.
Speaker:I think, awesome.
Speaker:I think you and I could just talk for hours.
Speaker:It will not be done.
Speaker:amazing.
Speaker:I think the workbook, the book that you've got, that's an amazing
Speaker:resource for all the parents.
Speaker:Whether I think even just for loss as well, but especially for divorces when
Speaker:they're going through a conflict, just to be able to process the information.
Speaker:So how can they access the book and who can you help?
Speaker:Can they reach out to you directly?
Speaker:Yeah, so it's on Amazon, it's called Just Separated.
Speaker:I have a look here, it's like this with the car, which is a broken up car.
Speaker:So it's on Amazon and I'm at so I'm, two emails, I'm at
Speaker:griefandlosscounselor with one L at gmail.
Speaker:com and that's my grief, the death loss.
Speaker:And then I'm at divorcekarenatdivorceworkshop.
Speaker:ca, that's my email.
Speaker:Or, divorceworkshop.
Speaker:ca, there's some free tips and some blogs there, and of course our books.
Speaker:And we do offer free consultation, so.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'll put all those links in the show notes as well.
Speaker:So the readers will have access or the listeners will have access to that.
Speaker:Now, the book itself, is that just for parents in America or Canada, or is
Speaker:the legal advice and they're going to be valid for people across the world?
Speaker:It does
Speaker:It's just legal information.
Speaker:So, it's like,
Speaker:you said, you just
Speaker:who, how do you interview a lawyer?
Speaker:Can you mediate?
Speaker:It's very just information.
Speaker:It's like keeping your legal bills down.
Speaker:Each jurisdiction is different.
Speaker:Australia is going to be different than UK UK, but it's just general, like what
Speaker:is in a general separation agreement?
Speaker:I had no idea.
Speaker:This is just, this is kind of what's in it.
Speaker:So it's just very, it just, it's a little bit, it's an educational thing, right?
Speaker:It's not, What's your support child support chart in Australia?
Speaker:It's nothing like that or UK It's just the very same with finances, right?
Speaker:Just your budget one of the workouts in Financial is are you anxious about money
Speaker:and how maybe you should have to like some tools and how to not be so anxious and
Speaker:so Yeah, it's just it's just it like I always say to other divorce professionals
Speaker:It doesn't take any of your jobs away But it does really educate the people and
Speaker:it's like a resource the thing about love about this is say you're coming You're You
Speaker:know, you're having a co parenting issue and you're like, Oh, I don't know what to
Speaker:do because the pages are all individual.
Speaker:It's not like a reading book.
Speaker:You can go into the, yeah, you can go into co parenting and just
Speaker:like, okay, Oh, here's the tip.
Speaker:Like you don't have to fight.
Speaker:It's like, it's really, really simple.
Speaker:I almost call it like an encyclopedia for like a divorce.
Speaker:Like it's just a great resource that you put on your bookshelf and just
Speaker:say, okay, this is bothering me.
Speaker:How do I do this?
Speaker:Put it away.
Speaker:A couple of days later, something else comes up.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that's kind of way.
Speaker:I think anybody who is exploring or going through either divorce or separation I
Speaker:wish I'd had it because there's nothing really, anything out there like this.
Speaker:And I have a, you know, and I have a passion to help people
Speaker:and I wanted to make this book able for more people, right?
Speaker:Because coaching, not everybody can afford, right?
Speaker:But at least the book is more reachable to more people.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:up, flip a page and see what suits you, you do it, you read it.
Speaker:By the day, and it is, from my own experience as well, there is
Speaker:nothing like that in the market.
Speaker:You go out and you think of a lot and the thing also to take away, especially during
Speaker:a high conflict situation like this, really always able to think straight.
Speaker:And usually a lot of the people who are coming to you, they might be
Speaker:coming with, you know, the right intentions, but they'll be colored
Speaker:with whatever's happened with them.
Speaker:So like, I remember, for example, when I was going through my process, I just
Speaker:had people who were telling me, No, you know what, you should just get a divorce,
Speaker:or was very much around child custody.
Speaker:It was very much being dictated like how I should have more or whatever.
Speaker:And so on, like the people come up with their things and luckily I had
Speaker:my own energetic tools to be able to understand and clear up and go, okay,
Speaker:no, I have to think in terms of my child and what's best for my child
Speaker:and not be swayed by that because that time your head might not be as clear.
Speaker:So it's
Speaker:I'm glad.
Speaker:during that time because your exercises, they help you like think
Speaker:a lot more rationally than someone who's coming from a place where
Speaker:it's more emotional and it's more
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:You're exactly right on.
Speaker:You're so overwhelmed.
Speaker:You don't know where to go.
Speaker:You don't know what to do.
Speaker:And that's why we hope it helps many people, right?
Speaker:Because I don't want people to go through what I did, you know?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And I think it will be such a better place as well because divorce is
Speaker:a very taxing emotionally taxing experience for all of us, for us as
Speaker:adults, for all our children as well.
Speaker:And there is a huge increase in divorce rates across the world, anywhere.
Speaker:So it's good that we all have a better framework for just working
Speaker:through this process and making it as easy for us and for our children.
Speaker:I think it helps generations after as well, because divorce
Speaker:has such a lasting impact.
Speaker:Yeah, it does.
Speaker:And I'm, I'm so glad there's people like you out there as well that
Speaker:are helping support too, right?
Speaker:We just, The more support we have, I'm just so big on it, the, the, the better
Speaker:we get through divorce or death loss.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well, thank you, Karen.
Speaker:Thanks for just coming here and just sharing your tips and insights with us.
Speaker:I think the work that you're doing is absolutely amazing.
Speaker:I will
Speaker:for the podcast for the book in the podcast show notes so that
Speaker:our listeners can access that.
Speaker:I think it's going to be handy across all platforms.
Speaker:All over the world.
Speaker:So any last tips or anything that you want to share?
Speaker:Otherwise just it's been such a pleasure having you.
Speaker:There has been a lot of nuggets that you've shared in this podcast.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, you and I could have talked for another hour because
Speaker:it just was, you know, there's so much information between us though.
Speaker:No, it was lovely for me, for me to come on.
Speaker:Thank you for having me and I love what you do as well.
Speaker:Thank you for tuning in to the Art of Life podcast.
Speaker:It is definitely your love that keeps me going, wanting
Speaker:to publish even more episodes.
Speaker:So if you feel called, please do leave me a review.
Speaker:I would love to hear what you thought about the episode.
Speaker:If you wanted to connect with me, you can also reach out to me at artoflifecenter.
Speaker:com slash hello, because I would love to hear from you.
Speaker:All right, till next time.
Speaker:Bye
Speaker:bye.
